Curse

Another Felldspar · Aug 13, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

It seems that everytime there is an effort made to slow farming by nerfing skills another and, in many cases, more effective, method pops up in the wake. I wonder if bringing back a re-vamped and more effective anti-farming code isn't the best way to stop the SF, 600/Smite, and speed clear problems. That doesn't send the play styles to the graveyard, but it would slow down the amount of loot coming out of the elite areas considerably. It would also let casual type farmers that have spent time getting a character outfitted and to the proper areas have some fun, experiment with the builds, learn the processes involved, make some money, and then move on.

Or, in the same way that Nicholas can only be traded with once per week, or a Zaishen Quest can only be turned in once per day per character, entry to the elite areas and dungeons could be limited in some way. I know that the Favor of the Gods was designed to be a limit to UW/FoW access, but with the advent of entry scrolls that dwindled. Enforcing a new limit might be good for dungeons as well as elite areas. If one character has opened an end chest today maybe that character gets nothing out of opening it a second time.

If you had the combined problem of keeping a goodly chunk of the player base happy without touching skills at all, and still slowing down the flow of goods from the most used farming builds how would you go about it? Are there any creative anti-farmers out there?

Ugh · Aug 13, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I would be okay with restrictions/limits for the elite areas of GW2. But if this was implemented into GW1, the amount of QQ would be insane.

Quote:

If you had the combined problem of keeping a goodly chunk of the player base happy without touching skills at all, and still slowing down the flow of goods from the most used farming builds how would you go about it?

I would increase the action against repeated farming of an area/mob. Skills and farms are left alone, a broad range of farms and creative farmers are encouraged, and mindless farming of the same area from both players and bots is discouraged.

Also, I would remove loot scaling. That's not anti-farming, however.

Sir Cusfreak · Aug 13, 2009, 03:35 PM // 15:35

IF there was to be a nerf of SF/600/other overpowered farming builds, which the devs are talking out-loud about, (hi Linsey, hope you think long and hard about it first!) I think the OP's ideas here show the LEAST amount of farm-hate. Limitation > complete denial

and yeah, if the devs are gonna hit farming builds, I would MUCH rather see it as the farm code put back, or limited entry, or something along those lines than a complete shutdown.

Whether farming actually NEEDS to be hit, and why, is another topic entirely.

The forth fly · Aug 13, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

how else are people gonna get money?
power trading is just as boring as farming especially with the awful trade system guild wars has.Stop queening about farmers and make 1

AKB48 · Aug 13, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayelet Feldspar

Or, in the same way that Nicholas can only be traded with once per week, or a Zaishen Quest can only be turned in once per day per character, entry to the elite areas and dungeons could be limited in some way. I know that the Favor of the Gods was designed to be a limit to UW/FoW access, but with the advent of entry scrolls that dwindled. Enforcing a new limit might be good for dungeons as well as elite areas. If one character has opened an end chest today maybe that character gets nothing out of opening it a second time.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard "yeah, restrict how the players play so they can't farm anymore, people aren't gonna accept this, you can nerf skills and buff enemies, but you can't say to the player " hey I'm gonna make a change that affects how and what you can do in GW""

Uw really is if you farmed it enough times, you get tired of it and don't farm as much, and with the unreliable pugs, not many people are too willing to see another fail run.

Racthoh · Aug 13, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayelet Feldspar

Or, in the same way that Nicholas can only be traded with once per week, or a Zaishen Quest can only be turned in once per day per character, entry to the elite areas and dungeons could be limited in some way. I know that the Favor of the Gods was designed to be a limit to UW/FoW access, but with the advent of entry scrolls that dwindled. Enforcing a new limit might be good for dungeons as well as elite areas. If one character has opened an end chest today maybe that character gets nothing out of opening it a second time.

Restriction is a lazy method of balancing the rewards. If a designer isn't willing to create challenging content to match the rewards then the player base shouldn't be restricted to the content itself (Oh hai thar WoW).

Rooms Of Ruin · Aug 13, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The forth fly

how else are people gonna get money?
power trading is just as boring as farming especially with the awful trade system guild wars has.Stop queening about farmers and make 1

That's the problem; casual players fail to realize how many millions of gold many of the titles cost, and are completely unattainable by conventional playing. All the events in the world will not give you enough sweets, booze, and party points to max those titles without farming. Good luck affording 5-10 thousand lockpicks to max treasure hunter. And how exactly would the OP suggest I find and identify 10,000 golds when only 1-2 drop per person in an entire 8-man vanquish? Jealousy is most certainly clouding peoples judgment when they so vehemently oppose rewards for the people who actually sacrifice their time and work for them.

mathiastemplar · Aug 13, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Too late to add hard restrictions.. would cause all the farmers to leave this game.
+ There is no reason to punish people who are playing a lot (farming a lot/getting more money than casual players).
What's wrong with how things are now?

Sir Cusfreak · Aug 13, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Restriction is a lazy method of balancing the rewards.

Ok, but it still seems better to have the farm code/limited entry-type restriction, where the drops start to suck *after a while* but you CAN still do the farms, (just have to have 5 or 6 different farms to rotate - which most do anyway, I bet, I know I do) than to nerf the skills themselves to kill it completely. "Lazy" or not, it would at least let people who enjoy playing a certain way do so. They just have to do other things too or the rewards sharply decline.

I farm. a lot. Everyone is taking these comments to mean that I'm throwing around farm-hate, and thats not the case. I would 10x rather see a farm code, or even limited entry, than to see SF is no longer maintainable by anyone, or the dungeons have an environmental effect that does 500pts of dmg per monk enchantment every 40 seconds, or whatever; If a rinse-repeat 'sin in ToPK invokes the farm-code, then switch to the ele and farm feathers, and when they dont drop, then switch to the 600 and so on, but without that measure then the builds are just dead. Going after the skills, or even buffing the areas with the intent of stopping a particular build is TRUE anti-farm, while putting in some limits gets the torch-and-pitchfork weilding anti-farmers to (hopefully) calm down and go on about thier lives thinking they've suceeded and done some good for the world and then hopefully shut up.

Still seems noone is answering the call of the OP and suggesting a better option than either a complete denial by killing the skill themselves or anti-build area/mob changes, VS imposing limits of some kind.
Personally I dont think we should have either one, BUT we're going to see some anti-farm action, guaranteed. So what should it be?

OH and:

Quote:

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard "yeah, restrict how the players play so they can't farm anymore, people aren't gonna accept this, you can nerf skills and buff enemies, but you can't say to the player " hey I'm gonna make a change that affects how and what you can do in GW""

and THAT was the stupidest thing IVE ever heard, limits dont mean you cant farm anymore, killing the farm skills does. LIMITED is different than CANT. Stop eating the crayons. Skill nerfs decide EXACTLY what you can and cant do, limits say how often you can do them, or how often the reward for doing them is there.

Targren · Aug 13, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

I would 10x rather see a farm code, or even limited entry, than to see SF is no longer maintainable by anyone, or the dungeons have an environmental effect that does 500pts of dmg per monk enchantment every 40 seconds,

The reason limited-entry is a stupid idea is that it burns everyone, even(or especially) the supposed "casual players" that are queued up just waiting for the day UWSC is nerfed so they can delve into UW en masse... Good luck learning to finish UW if you can only enter it once a day (or, if they reach WoW-like levels of stupid, once a week). It's yet another logically inconsistent suggestion that reveals the true underlying motivation.

Bringing back the anti-farm code would probably work, except that it seems to be the exact opposite of what Anet is pushing: Farming a different small set of areas every week for some crappy trophies. Some are insanely easy (Charr hides), some less so...

Then again, I'm not entirely sure they removed the anti-farm code from the game in the first place, rather than just the notification thereof. >_>

TottWriter · Aug 13, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooms Of Ruin

That's the problem; casual players fail to realize how many millions of gold many of the titles cost, and are completely unattainable by conventional playing. All the events in the world will not give you enough sweets, booze, and party points to max those titles without farming. Good luck affording 5-10 thousand lockpicks to max treasure hunter. And how exactly would the OP suggest I find and identify 10,000 golds when only 1-2 drop per person in an entire 8-man vanquish? Jealousy is most certainly clouding peoples judgment when they so vehemently oppose rewards for the people who actually sacrifice their time and work for them.

I have to agree with you there, although I am a casual player

I can only play a few hours every week (on account of having a very lively toddler and a fiancee!) and at my current rate, I'll still be gunning for my GWAMM when I'm old and grey. Sure I could farm, but I'm not the farming type. I haven't made my way through all the content yet due to my slow rate of play.

Either way, I don't think farming is something that needs to be removed. It would be nice if there wasn't the same need for it that there is now, but that's another matter entirely. That would mean completely redesigning parts of GW to add content, sidequests and other activities, which we know ANet doesn't have the resources to do right now.

Another Felldspar · Aug 13, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Restriction is a lazy method of balancing the rewards.

Agreed.

But, the people who create the builds that others use to farm Guild Wars are an ingenius lot. (I say it that way because many of the actual farmers that I see in the areas are decidedly NOT ingenius) There seems to always be a new way to put 8 skills on the bars and undo the area's balance. With Kathandrax I believe that the current farming method uses SF Farmers for the run and a part of the dungeon and then 600/Smite for the rest of the content. How is a not-lazy -- and I believe that Linsey is decidedly Not-Lazy -- developer to make an area balance to rewards? I seriously doubt that it is possible.

Hence my throw back to anti-farming code. You take out too much stuff from a particular area and said stuff stops dropping for you. At the same time the idea of anti-farm code is rather offensive to me, just in general. The problem being I don't see any other effective means of stemming the tide.

Personally, I would love to see Linsey do exactly as she's discussed and rework all of the elite areas. It would mean new content for me to play and I love playing new content. But in the long run I don't think it would be effective as anti-farm. Some bright boy would come up with the build, or cooperative builds, to polish it off, and then it all starts all over again. The not-lazy developer then has to start all over again too.

Maybe, if the spawns themselves were random and players never knew exactly what skills they'd be facing in an area it could work. But that's the only way that I can see an anti-farm that is based on the skill bars and AI of the monsters being effective for the long haul. Without that it seems that either anti-farming code or limited access would be the only solution. And I can't even imagine how difficult random spawns would be to implement in already developed areas.

I'm hoping one of those ingenius, bright boys can come up with a solution that I have never considered and show me how I'm wrong in my assumptions.

Edited to add:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooms Of Ruin

That's the problem; casual players fail to realize how many millions of gold many of the titles cost, and are completely unattainable by conventional playing. All the events in the world will not give you enough sweets, booze, and party points to max those titles without farming. Good luck affording 5-10 thousand lockpicks to max treasure hunter. And how exactly would the OP suggest I find and identify 10,000 golds when only 1-2 drop per person in an entire 8-man vanquish? Jealousy is most certainly clouding peoples judgment when they so vehemently oppose rewards for the people who actually sacrifice their time and work for them.

I wish people would stop ridiculously assuming that I am somehow against farming. I am not advocating the end of farms. I'm one of those people that keep score by using my titles, and I know how expensive they can be. But, the people that keep score using the tally of the money/ecto they have acquired are just as viable, in my mind, as title hunters, or the people who keep score by buying shiny stuff and looking good. Farming is required for all of those things.

The thing is, according to a quote on an Aug. 7 post on her talk page, Linsey is planning to do something to cut the effectiveness of 600/smite teams, SF farmers and, in PvP, MB Eles. She was quoted as saying that she would prefer to change the elite areas to make the SF builds less viable in those areas rather than simply nerfing SF, but that she was considering nerfing 600/Smite. Since I do farm and I don't want 600/Smite to go away completely I started thinking about other things that might be viable instead. That's the point of the thread. It is absolutely not, "OMG Farmers suck 'cause I can't do it, boo-hoo-hoo!"

Ideas. Ideas are the point of the thread. What could happen to allow a maintainable SF to still exist and to allow 600/Smite to still exist while at the same time limiting massive influx of new gold to the game?

refer · Aug 13, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

One way to stop solo farming at least: the area boss level on party size... so when you are alone, the enemies REALLY get tough. That or give them some form of non spell based enchantment removal.

Silence in Death · Aug 13, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I don't understand. Do players who don't do UWSC think that if the build is nerfed then all of a sudden noobs and inexperienced players are gonna get in balanced groups with all the old UWSCers?

There is literally nothing stopping someone from doing old skool UW now and there won't be anything encouraging more people to do it if UWSC is nerfed. Experienced players will still be in experienced groups.

On a side note. So assume SF gets nerfed. Anyone remember the old Obby fFlesh clears? Those might come back.

Spider of the UW · Aug 13, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

the funny thing about this is all the dungeons are being runned by the monks and people pay for them. I guess it is kinda faster being run instead of playing with that gruop. But the main thins is " DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IS IT TO GET DECENT PLAYERS" to make a group? there is always some noobs there. And I dont mind noobs cuz we all once were but.... those who dont listen and just screw the whole group over by agroing everything to the monk... And do you know how hard it is to get a MONK!!......

And UWSC applies for the above too......

would love to be able to do dungeons and elite areas the normal way...

Sir Cusfreak · Aug 13, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Actually the random, or somewhat random spawn idea isnt bad, as long as it wasnt done like Proph bosses, where people just re-zone until they get the spawn they want...make the same enemies spawn every time but have a preset list of builds for them, and they get a new one each time.
That could be fun to play against.

Spider of the UW · Aug 13, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

that will make it really hard for monks to deal with areas....

cognophile · Aug 13, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

I'm not a fan of either farming or paid dungeon runs. To me, turning the game into a job (farming) seems wrong, as in not fun. Paying someone else to play the game (hiring a dungeon runner) also seems ... wrong.

Admittedly, I have done some farming in order to max my drunkard, kurzick, and lucky titles, but I don't intend to spend time on other "grind" or money-based titles such as luxon, treasure hunter, wisdom, sweet tooth, and party animal now that my GWAMM is done. At this point, I only really do farming to get items for Nicholas the Traveler.

My vote would be to somehow nerf the areas that are overfarmed rather than attempting to nerf the farming builds themselves.

Racthoh · Aug 13, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayelet Feldspar

Personally, I would love to see Linsey do exactly as she's discussed and rework all of the elite areas. It would mean new content for me to play and I love playing new content. But in the long run I don't think it would be effective as anti-farm. Some bright boy would come up with the build, or cooperative builds, to polish it off, and then it all starts all over again. The not-lazy developer then has to start all over again too.

It's wasted effort really. There are good intentions but I don't see the point. Look at the PvE skills we have, the consumables. If you rework a zone taking those into account you'll probably end up with something that resembles the Domain of Anguish on hard mode. It's a very restrictive area for a creative mind with a murderous difficulty level... until you throw on consumables and PvE skills. Then it's a one hour farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

Ok, but it still seems better to have the farm code/limited entry-type restriction, where the drops start to suck *after a while* but you CAN still do the farms, (just have to have 5 or 6 different farms to rotate - which most do anyway, I bet, I know I do) than to nerf the skills themselves to kill it completely. "Lazy" or not, it would at least let people who enjoy playing a certain way do so. They just have to do other things too or the rewards sharply decline.

It's a perfectly acceptable system provided there are other things to do. People enjoy grinding the same content over and over again, there's no debating that, so keep that option available. Personally my favorite loot system favors Diablo II where the drop frequency and health of the enemy scales according to the number of players in the game. However it was designed with the idea in mind that a single player can complete all of the content on their own so adapting such a system wouldn't work as well.

Sir Cusfreak · Aug 13, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

People enjoy grinding the same content over and over again, there's no debating that, so keep that option available.

I would agree fully with keeping that option available, hell I would prefer things like they are now, but I think the point is that the winds of change are a-blowing, whether we like them or not - as previously stated, Linseys talk page pretty specifically says they are going to go after some of these builds current usage. she does say she would prefer to do it by re-working the areas theyre used in, instead of nerfing the skills themselves - which is good, but I dont think we're going to escape the axe, whatever form it comes in, so the OP's question is a very good one. I think several folks took it as farmhate, when it seems to me to be more about how to accomplish the dev's goals and still not kill the farmer's playstyle.